Good morning everybody. My name is Isabelle Jenkins, and I am the head of financial services for PwC in the UK. I am absolutely delighted to be the moderator for this panel that's going to look at how financial services is responding to the digital revolution. We are going to take a look at how has the pandemic impacted that and what we expect to see going forward. I am absolutely delighted to have four fantastic guests today, and I am really looking forward to asking them questions, but I mustn’t be selfish, so please, I am sure you're as excited as I am and have lots of questions as well. If you post questions in Brella, then I will be able to ask my guests your questions. I am going to start by just asking each of the four guests introduce themselves. Jen, could we start with you please.
Yeah, sure, hi, good morning everybody, Jen Tippin from NatWest Group, I am the chief transformation officer.
Thanks Jen, and James.
Hello. James Bardrick, I am the head of UK for Citi, and also chief executive of Citigroup global markets, UK based, but international broker dealer.
Thank you, and Joe.
Good morning. Joe Garner, chief executive of Nationwide Building Society. We're not a bank, we're not a company, we're not a corporate, we are a society owned and run for the benefit of our 16 million members.
Thank you, Joe, and last but not least, Matt.
Hi, Matt Hammerstein, chief executive of Barclays UK.
Thank you, Matt.
What I wanted to start with was really understanding how the pandemic has impacted your businesses, and how you had to respond to that. Jen, could we maybe start with you?
Yeah sure, thanks Isabelle. We are a large bank in the UK, we are the market leader in commercial lending so. For us clearly the most important point we've been focusing on is supporting our customers during this pandemic. In particular, we are very proud, for example, that we lend more than 14 billion to our commercial customers. During this period, we kept 95% of our branches open, and we tried to support customers where they needed it the most. For example, when the chancellor launched the BBLS lending scheme, we were able to get a fully automated lending platform out there for our customers within 6 days, so really responding quickly to the need for our customers during that time. We've also been trying to support our local communities. We turned our head office into a food bank during the pandemic, we also turned one of our office buildings into a vaccine centre. I think unlike the financial crisis, really this health crisis has demonstrated the banking sector has a very important purpose and it's enabled businesses like ours, who really feel we are purpose led as a business, to really help that come to life in terms of how we've supported customers, our communities, and now how efforts are turning to helping customers and businesses bounce back. We launched our SME task force last week to support commercial businesses. We put a 1-billion-pound fund out there to support female entrepreneurs. We are supporting 1000 businesses to accelerate as well for our accelerator hub, so lots of work going on. But as you said, in the beginning, this pandemic has also seen very significant changes to customer behaviour, and in particular in digital.
We've seen very significant growth in numbers of customers interacting with us digitally. We have nearly 10 million digital users that’s up significantly versus 2020. We are seeing big growth in AI, and customers using chat, for example, and also new channels like video banking. In January 2020, we had about a 100 customers a week using our video banking channel to interact with us, that's now close to about 15,000 a week. Customers have really changed, and we tried to be there to support them throughout all of this health crisis.
Thank you, Jen. That’s fascinating and that rise is tremendous. James, could we turn to you, because obviously Citi’s operations in Europe has quite a large wholesale banking focus. Has it been similar in terms of the digital changes that you've seen in the wholesale space?
It really has. If I go back over a year, I remember one weekend driving through the Cotswolds with my family and having everyone to just be quiet for a little bit while we did our remote office working technology test, which as we did it. We were quite pleased that everybody seemed to connect, and it all seemed to work. Little did we know that four weeks later, we would be running our entire business pretty much from that remote working capability. I have to say that our operations and technology colleagues, and the way they ramped up not only the capability and the capacity unbelievably quickly, so that pretty much everybody in the firm can be supporting their clients and markets remotely, but actually the way that they also had to intervene to help some of us, particularly those of us of a certain age, that this comes less naturally to actually get used to using these technologies, was fantastic.
But I don't want to just focus on the technology and the communications, and as it were the sort of the hardware and software aspect of this, I want to focus a little bit on the human-ware aspect of it, because, for me, as I look back on that, and we are still currently 90% working remotely, supporting clients and markets, what I actually saw was some other things coming through. It was probably the moment where existing culture of our people and existing relationships between our people really came to the fore, but also where something which we've talked a lot about, but actually people found a little intangible, which is purpose and empathy really came to the fore. A lot of our people really suddenly coalesced in terms of why they were connected in what they were doing much more than they had been pre the remote working in the pandemic, because this immediate threat, this immediate problem was upon them and everybody had that common purpose. Secondly, there was much greater empathy, people really trying to understand not just customers, not just colleagues, not just regulators, but every stakeholder, people are understanding what's your issue, what are you having to deal with, what are you trying to solve for, and how can I be helpful with that, rather than just processing out what we normally do.
That would be my big takeaway, is that it actually, as a silver lining, really brought that whole human-ware aspect to the fore. Interestingly, although I am sure some of it was driven by adrenaline, the fight or flight reaction that we will have, particularly in the initial weeks and months, and I'll come later perhaps in other questions as to, what are some of the problems and challenges that you face. It was quite interesting that whereas our focus was on, how much can we actually do to replicate what we normally do in this new remote working environment, and how much can we keep as high as possible our service levels and our quality levels, etc. One of the first and very immediate surprise was, I wasn’t surprised by how well our people reacted, because I knew who they are, and why they are, and how they do things, so I wasn't surprised by it, I was very impressed, but there were some surprises and one of those surprises was actually our quality levels went up. If you look at our measures of customer satisfaction, if you measure our quality levels in terms of the amount of information that goes to the customer that is correct first time, that is on time and not late, and to our surprise, our measures went up. It was people just really focusing, really concentrating, and having a much greater sense of purpose, and that adrenaline at first, but then actually, that really caring about why they were there and what they were doing.
Thank you, James. Let's come back as you said to actually what's been challenging and what happens when the adrenaline stops running, and we are all a bit exhausted, and how do you keep going and how do you motivate people, but fascinating points.
Matt, could we come to you next? Let's start to look forward as we come out of the pandemic, and I would be been really interested in your views as to how you think the pandemic has changed customer behaviours, and how you think you are going to have to react as a business. Maybe with an interesting spin on that, we heard from Anne Boden this morning saying, saying, big banks can take a long time to make decisions and action and that means for some of the neo banks they can be going into take market share. I would be interested in your perspectives on that as well, Matt.
Sure, two things are important to bear in mind there. One, banking has been changing for a long time, 30 years ago, nearly all the transactional activity customers would have done with the bank had happened in a branch. Today, that's less than 10%. In fact, 97% of the interactions we have with customers today are fully automated, whether in a branch or outside of it. A lot of what we've seen over COVID has been an acceleration of those trends, rather than anything fundamentally different. You've seen it, almost by definition or necessity a significant drop in cash usage. It was already down about 35% in the two years prior to COVID, we saw a drop as long as 45% to 50% through COVID. Similarly, footfall in branches obviously was down significantly given the restrictions on people's mobility and perceptions of some of the risks associated with the cash handling or obviously spending time face to face in a branch environment.
We’ve also, as Jen touched on earlier, all seen a significant increase in digital as a consequence of that. More than 70% of our customers are now digitally active. We've seen a 20% increase in digital only customers, the people who only interact with us through those digital channels. Even traditionally digitally resistant cohorts, so called older people, 75% of seniors now go online. They're about, over half of 25 to 34 year olds today say they don't even need to carry a wallet around, because they're happy to interact if you like financially through their phones. All of that was there pre-COVID, as I said, COVID just accelerated it. The other thing that COVID made us realise or forced us all to realise, was those trends are happening very unevenly across society.
So, 25% of all our branch users that are heavy users exhibit vulnerable characteristics, you did continue to see people queuing outside branches, notwithstanding, some of the health challenges that people perceive to get associated with cash handling or visiting people face to face. Age is the biggest driver. We still see a branch usage; you see older cohorts accounting for about 65% of frequent branch users. Then there is this still yawning gap in terms of digital skills. People are using digital but are not entirely confident in their ability to use digital tools to manage their money effectively. We've got a lot of work to do as an industry and society to help build that confidence.
When I hear Anne’s challenge about decision making, the difference I would say between my organisation and hers is, I've got 20 million individuals and a million small businesses whose interest I have to cater to, and there's a very wide range of capabilities, confidence and skills associated with that. I would say we are as good as anybody at making fast decisions, but we've also got to make sure that when we make those decisions, we can confidently bring all 20 million individuals and 1 million small businesses with us.
Great thanks, Matt.
Joe, at the beginning you made that a really important point that Nationwide is not a bank, you're not a corporate, you are a society. How does that change, when you're looking at customer behaviour and customer expectations going forward, how will that impact the way that you're looking to service your customers?
Well, similarities and differences. Similarities, as Jen says, overall, the financial services industry has responded really well to this crisis. It shows just how far the industry has progressed since the great financial crisis, both in prudential and in cultural terms. As James says, there has been a clear empathic response in quarters where sometimes it might not have been expected a few years ago, so those are encouraging. Obviously, digital has leaped forward, it was happening before, but we have seen more people doing more things, and importantly it's not just about frequency of digital usage, we've seen people start doing things digitally that they wouldn't have dreamt of doing before. Particularly different demographics, older people doing mortgages completely on video from home, these sorts of things were not happening for many people prior to that. But then maybe where we diverge a bit, and perhaps it is driven a bit by the fact that we are owned by members is, whilst we are investing very heavily in digital, we don't walk around all day saying the future is digital. We walk around all day saying the future is human. How do we use digital, not to automate personal service, but rather how do we use digital to enhance the human experience. Our viewpoint is, we are not trying to be an app, we are not going to try and turn our entire organisation into an app, what we've got is decades and decades of experience and loyalty. What we're really looking at and increasingly doing is how we use the great skill, capability, commitment, loyalty of our people up and down the country in the high streets to serve our members through digital channels. Therefore, what we are increasingly doing is sprinkling the magic of that historic human branch service through chat, through email, through telephony and routinely we have a third of our phone calls being answered by people in branches, people with decades and decades of experience. The average handling time might go up a bit, but brilliant, if it's what our members want and enjoy, and they're getting great experience themselves. Digital yes, but that doesn't mean the end of humanity, far from it, the really interesting space is how do you bring that warmth, that empathy, that humanity to life in the digital world.
Thank you, Joe, and that point, it's about partnering the humanity in the digital together is really interesting. Let's come back onto that in terms of going forward. I just wanted to pause, and I agree, a number of you made the points that the financial services has responded well during COVID and we've seen some really positive things. Jen, you talked about how you've responded to the government schemes; James, you talked about that really your people have done some heroic efforts, but a lot of that has been driven by adrenaline. Just before we move on, I'd like to come back and just say that, we all know the last year has been really tough, what have been some of the hardest things that you've had to deal with and the most challenging things in your organisation? James, could we start with you?
Sure, and I am glad we came back to this, because it's very easy when you discover that you can do things, and particularly when you discover that you can do those things even better than you would have did to plan for. You can forget other aspects, which really matter, and yes, like some of the others was talking, the usage of our fully automated digital client access systems have gone up 300% to 400% in our market areas, which were traditionally quite slow to move away from peer to peer contacts and telephones, etc. Even I at personal level, after years and years of commitments and failures to deliver, even I’ve essentially gone paperless during this last period. But what we're absolutely determined, that we're not going to do institutionally, and I am not going to do personally is go office-less. There is a reason for that, to your point, which is, as we saw the pandemic period go on, forget the lock downs and where they work, the reality is that 90% roughly of our people have spent the entire period of the last 12 months or so effectively working remotely, and we've actually found that's presented its challenges, and in two ways. One is that as the adrenaline, the fight or flight response inevitably erodes, because it's not a permanent way of being and nor should it be, but secondly, as you also find that people are not re-establishing the goodwill, and the connectivity, and the relationship inputs that they get from being physically with each other in as importantly informal interaction as well as the formal interaction. We do the formal interaction really efficiently with technology, through Zoom, and all of our various other media type connections, but actually the informal connectivity is very difficult to replicate. At one extreme, I've got people who just haven't had any of that for 12 months. Even if they know their colleagues unbelievably well, like me, they've been in the organisation for three decades, they haven't had the more recent connectivity and interaction.
Then secondly, like any organisation, we are constantly changing and evolving, and we've got new people joining. In Belfast alone, where we have 3000 people, I've got well over 300 people who have joined us in the last 12 months, who have never been into the office, who have never met their colleagues. They've had the formal interaction in meetings and discussions, they found it harder to do the informal. So, where's the learning, where's the apprenticeship, the mentoring, the training, the collaboration, the innovation workshops, which are just harder to do in that resource. We've already identified that we don't see remote working at an extreme level as being our long-term future, we will be an office-based organisation, but we've learned the benefits of the flexibility, and the trust, and the empowerment that we've been giving to our people and we've been rewarded and surprised by just what has come out. So, less focus on inputs, more focus on outputs; less focus on presenteeism, more focus on who's actually really listening to other people, who's being really empathetic, and who's coming up with the better ideas, the better solutions, the better innovations, and the people development. We've got to be all very focused on people development as being one of the things that mustn't get lost in all of this.
Yeah, thank you James, and certainly for PwC as an organisation that's one of our major focuses in terms of coming forward and how do we keep that people development going, and Joe, you wanted to add something.
I have just been thinking a lot about this from a perspective of leadership and what's been so hard and different about leading through this crisis. One of the aspects is that, anything I've seen about leadership is typically, there are different styles of leadership. You've got one group, which is the democratic, consensual, involving, affiliative kind of leadership, that’s very discursive and involves people. Then you've got the kind of very directive commanding pacesetter kind of leadership. The consensual stuff, the democrat is good in calm times because you need to take people with you, then in a crisis, is the time to be directive and make decisions quickly. But of course, this isn't like a previous crisis, it is not a war, it's not a financial crisis, it's a very human crisis. What is demanded of all of us as leaders is the ability to be both incredibly decisive and incredibly caring at the same time. What it has demanded us to do as leaders is fuse together the extremes of leadership in a way that certainly I haven't felt that pressure to the same degree before. How it has presented itself is, we've done things like at Nationwide, we introduced our sentiment tracker, which is a real life pulse of how our employees are feeling. We've had it for our members for a while, but we introduced it for our employees as well. They're not just daily, but actually hourly, we could track sentiment within our organisation. That meant that as various chapters of the crisis unfolded, whether it was, hand sanitizers or masks or social distance or whatever it was, we could see how our organisation was responding, and make decisions really rapidly, but still taking care and consideration of how people are feeling. There is a new leadership style that has emerged through this crisis of what I would call, directive empathy or something like that. That's a fusion of what historically have been very different styles of leadership.
Thanks Joe, that sounds a lot like this concept of, maybe, sometimes the legacy financial services players being a little bit slow on decision making, that actually we've already begun to see that change during the pandemic. Matt, you wanted to make a point.
Just two quick things in response if I may. One of the lessons for society, but it certainly applies for banks as well is, never again should we have to define who are our central workers are. The fact that we all went through a process at the beginning of the crisis and having to write down a list of those people that needed to come into the office, because we spend a lot of time and there is a lot of media coverage about the fact that there is a debate about who needs to, and when, and how often they'll come back into the office. I know like others we've had thousands of colleagues in the office every day, serving customers brilliantly notwithstanding the challenges to them and those customers.
Then two, a little bit to Joe's point, one of the interesting things for me about working from home is, on the one hand, it's phenomenal for inclusion, because everybody is equal, because nobody on a top floor or bottom floor, there's no cliques of people that are closer to other people, everybody is the same distance from everybody else. Yet at the same time, it creates this huge mental health challenge around the sense of feeling excluded. We like our colleagues, and we like our little portfolios of close relationships that are somewhat divisive from an inclusion standpoint. To Joe's point, it's not just the extremes of leadership, but it's the fundamentals of leadership, and how do you help people still feel included, when they feel like they are at home alone, and they live at work, and at the same time create that sense of camaraderie, curiosity, and collegiality, without necessarily allowing people to when they're back in the office, reform those cliques and create a divisive environment.
Yeah, thanks Matt. It will be fascinating as we move to hybrid working models and back into the office about how cultures change. Obviously, it's UK FinTech week that's why we're here, which is really exciting. I'd love to get into some more detail with you now about what you think the next stages of the digital evolution of your businesses will be. Then, in particular, how do you really work with FinTechs at the moment, and how do you see that changing going forward. Jen, I'd love to hear what's happening at NatWest?
Yeah, thanks Isabelle. I agree with a lot of what Joe was saying, but the next stage is going to be, how do you marry the very best in technology, the very best in digital experience, together with the brilliance of your people, because what customers are looking for, ultimately is choice, but they're also looking for advice. That combination of brilliance in terms of technology, choice and flexibility, together with warmth, the empathy, and the expertise of our people, absolutely that's going to be the next stage in terms of evolution. This pandemic has taught us many things, chief among them is really about how you can be really flexible, how you as a business can be connected, but also open on the inside and open on the outside. For us at NatWest, we fundamentally believe we don't have to be able to build everything ourselves, we want to work with partners, we want to marry the very best and the most brilliant in terms of technology with the expertise of our people. So, we are surfacing an ever increasing number of API's through our business and we’re finding that is gives us a lot more choice, a lot more flexibility, and also a lot more speed as well, which our customers are looking for, and some examples that bring to mind is our work with FinTechs, such as BioCatch or Nuance for example, which is enabling us to use biometrics authentication with our customers and helping to prevent fraud, which we know is clearly a huge concern for our customers.
Working in partnership, we've been taxed as well to deliver new and exciting propositions to our customers, that has really come to the fore. The examples I would give would be Payit, which gives customers the ability to be able to send and receive payments via open banking, is now the top PISP in the country, and was used most notably, to raise millions of pounds for Captain Tom Moore Foundation recently through the pandemic. A great example of a bank like ours partnering with a brilliant FinTech to create that great proposition for customers. Tyl, which is another one of our partnerships and ventures for card payments, for SMEs, for example, which enables our customers to get cash in their accounts the next day. It's simple, has fast set up, it's cheap to run, or Mettle which is our mobile business banking account. Here are our multiple examples of where we as an organisation, we as a group want to partner with the very best in technology, the very best FinTechs, in order to create great propositions for our customers, improve our agility, improve our speed, but also make sure that we're meeting the needs of our customers now and into the future.
Great, thank you Jen. These are lovely examples there, and really interesting, because some of the research we've done recently at PwC, looking at where we see already financial services working with FinTechs is some of the key themes coming through, are around payments and cyber and security as you've just raised, so fascinating to hear your examples. Matt, can I come to you in terms of what you see going forward for Barclays and how are you already working with FinTechs?
Yeah, maybe the same things as Jen, the two things I would call out are much as Joe said earlier, a large part of the journey so far for financial services, let alone banks for building societies, has been about digitising the things that should be simple for people to do on their own, so that you remove the hassle in terms of them either having to do it on the terms of the bank, so they can do it when and where they want to, but also so they can free their time up, to be able to do, in Maslow's hierarchy terms, the next level of financial services. Too much in the past, people ended up spending their time on a queue in a branch, rather than spending time on the significant planning ahead conversations that are needed to have to make sure that money was ultimately working for them. A big part of working with FinTech is recognising that one of the ironies of technologies, as we head into this next phase, is it's not just going to be about automating those simple services, technology and data puts a bigger burden on financial services players to make sure, you can now proactively assess whether or not, individuals are making decisions that are in their best interests. You can no longer passively sit by and observe that, you've now got the data and the capability in front of you to be able to do something about it if you think that they're not doing something in their best interest. For us, partnering with FinTech is a fundamentally important part of recognising, we're really good at doing banking in its version up till now, but we need different skills and capabilities going forward to help enhance that, so that our wonderful colleagues can continue to bring their humanity and empathy, where we can provide better skills and capabilities alongside that.
For instance, we're working with a FinTech called Scalable on our investment capabilities to bring digital planning, facilities to people, so they can do some pre-work before we engage with them on guidance and potentially even advice. We are working with FinTechs Flux and Bank, to be able to bring digital receipts and loyalty program management that help people manage their money again more systematically than they would be able to without those capabilities. On the business side, we're working with a FinTech called Smart Pension, who helps small business owners cater to not only their own individual pension needs, but also those of their employees, that's a real headache because it's not an area of expertise for most of small business owners. Then finally again on small businesses, a FinTech called Propel, who have the asset financing capabilities that aren't necessarily things that we have done in the past but are of a growing need for many of the small businesses that we work with. Finding ways to open up that technology architecture to bring those different skills, perspectives, and capabilities in, we think is absolutely fundamental to making sure that we can always help individuals and businesses do what's in their best interest.
Great, thank you Matt, and that's great, thanks to you and Jen, because one of the questions that we’d had that's come in from the audience was to ask for some specific examples of where you work with FinTech, so that level of detail, thank you, that will be really interesting to the audience. Joe, if we take your vision of, the future is really human empowered by digital, how does that impact, then what you'd see is the next steps of nationwide and how you work with FinTechs?
Well, three broad headings, learning, practical application, and thirdly, social good. First of all in terms of learning like others, we did some venturing early on, and you do learn a lot, you learn your procurement is too complicated, your lawyers are too conservative, arguably you may know those things, but to be venturing, we certainly found it out the hard way, which we did. Then, practical application like everyone on this call, we are increasingly working with FinTechs, because almost every part of the process, front or back can be enhanced at some point by using latest technologies, so like others were doing that, but perhaps the most interesting, is the potential of FinTech to solve some of the financial problems that have been out there forever. In a FinTech world you don't need people to understand APIs, you don't need people to do the work that can be done by an algorithm, but one of the difficulties is, FinTechs, they've got a runway, they've got a burn rate, they've got back as you are looking for return at some point.
Last week I was talking to somebody, who said, it's their ambition to be the first social purpose unicorn FinTech, and then I, ‘okay, great. I really hope you achieve that,’ but the greater the demand for commercial return, the harder it is to bring that technology to solve problems of financial inclusion and capability. One of the things, we launched was open banking for good, which was an initiative, a competition effectively we funded and founded, and backed a number of FinTechs, who were using open banking, to solve problems of financial capability. We were really encouraged by that, so we've now gone to the next level, which is investing in fair by design, which is effectively a social good FinTech incubator, because I think the potential of technology to help people with the challenges that have always been there around the complexity of financial services are enormous, but how can we make it easier for FinTechs to progress down that pathway without the very real demands of urgent financial return, and that's a really interesting area that certainly we've been continuing to invest in and will continue to invest in.
Thanks Joe, yeah and that's really interesting that point of that real conflict between the need for the financial returns and then the focus on the social good. We've only got five minutes left. I am sad to say, because I am really enjoying this. I am going to go to a quick-fire round, I was going to say to the contestants, but that’s to the participants. Really, I just want to know, we've got a lot of FinTechs watching today which is fantastic, what piece of advice would you give to FinTechs on how to work with your organisation and James, can we start with you?
What I was going to say in terms of advice to FinTechs working with us, is do focus on why we are different to other people and what we might bring to you, rather than being just another big bank, because my experience is, FinTechs working with us need to do two things. One is, they need to be very clear as to what it is that they are bringing, so that we can understand how we best apply that. Remember, we are slower often and more rigid and we're trying to get more flexible and trying to be more adaptable, but it's really improved when they can be very clear as to what their proposition is, and why having researched us and our 100 country footprint, it really makes sense for them to be talking to us for their objectives. The second thing is, be very clear and keep pushing back, every time we have a tendency to be a bit closed, a bit slow, all the things that Joe mentioned that we know we are, just keep going and just bear with us, be empathetic to us, know how hard it is for us to be very rapid in decision making, very flexible, we are trying to keep at it and keep challenging us.
I would say four things. Firstly, be clear, have a good quality of pitch deck, be prepared, do the right background research on the bank that you're looking to engage with, know a bit about their brands, customer segments, coverage models, be ready. We do have onboarding requirements, but as an example we've signed up to the FinTech pledge to help them tag with information and guidance on how to partner, so that should help as well. Then finally, be realistic and we've all got different priorities, different risk appetites, different areas of focus, so you need to keep knowing, but be realistic. What this discussion has shown is the opportunities to partner are really there and can add great value to our customers.
Brilliant. Matt, what would you like to add to that?
Some of the things, one, come with an ask, be ready to engage around how that sits with other priorities. For us, we’ve learned a lot about how to help FinTechs through both our Rise proposition and our ecolabs, to find a market opportunity even if it isn't potentially with us. The better thing to do is engage and be persistent around what you see the opportunity to be, and then we can help, if you will not, just engage through our capabilities and channels, but also potentially others. Then, we've actually published some, through those experiences, some very specific advice alongside our own commitment to the FinTech pledge on our website, definitely encourage people to go there and take a look at it and then engage on those terms.
Great Joe, sorry at the end, being the last of the four, asking the same question.
I am reminded of, in 1999, I was working for Procter and Gamble, a very conservative Cincinnati-based consumer goods company. At the time that ‘dot com’ boom was going wild everywhere. P&G was desperate to get into the dot com world. I remember the team from P&G flew down to San Francisco to meet some perspective dot com people, and the P&G people, swapped their suits and ties for jeans and T-shirts to try and look as trendy as possible. The dot com lot, knowing they were meeting corporate America, swapped their T-shirts and jeans for suits and ties, and they walked into the meeting and looked at each other, and all burst into fits of laughter, but there's a bit of a parallel through today. Recognising our different cultural histories, and norms, and reasons for those. How can we value the differences and work together to get to even better outcome, being the best of what FinTech can bring, but still married with some of the disciplines that are important in financial services.
That is a great point to end on Joe, thank you so much. I am really sad, because we've run out of time. It has been an absolutely fascinating discussion. One of the things that's been really interesting is to hear both the similarities between your four organisations, but also some of the differences as well. Really, all I want to do is, just to say thank you. Thank you to Jen, James, Matt, and Joe. You've been a fantastic panel today, so thank you so much, and I wish everybody a good afternoon.