Aiming for ethnic and racial equality

Emily Khan:

Welcome to the latest episode of our Business in Focus Podcast. I am Emily Khan and I am your host for this episode. The events of the past year have consistently placed racial and ethnic inequality under the spotlight, from the murder of George Floyd to awareness of how some of the challenges of lockdowns disproportionately affect those from minority backgrounds. Yet despite these social media and conversation flashpoints, we continue to struggle to convert words and debate into meaningful action that makes a lasting difference.

Where are we going wrong? Our future of government research published this month highlights the public's view on the challenges UK society faces. There are some stark results for those wanting to take on the challenge, with only 52% believing racism is prevalent in UK society, while a quarter think it doesn't exist. For organisations committed to taking on this challenge, we believe change starts with understanding your current position. We're also going to look at the recent findings on the ethnicity pay gap from our economics team, and how that could help uncover some starting points for action. How and where business educators and government focus to give everyone access to opportunities, services, and support they need to succeed.

A lot to cover and some tough questions to take on, which is why I'm so glad to be joined today by Karen Finlayson and Lola Ladejobi-Evans. Karen is our regional lead partner for government and health industries and led our research into racial and ethnic inequality. Alongside Lola, who is currently the markets and services director in PwC UK’s risk practice. Thank you both very much for joining me today and welcome. Before we dive into the data, I would really like to start with some personal introductions and reflections on why this sort of research is so important. Karen, perhaps I could come to you first. What prompted you to get involved in this piece of work?

Karen Finlayson:

Hi Emily and thank you for the introduction. For me getting involved in this particular piece of work was really important. As a leader in business and a leader within the firm, I think it's important that we understand what are the issues that are impacting society today, but also what are the actions we need to do, active change is really what's important here. I was really interested to see what the research had to say, because it does go out to a wide range and population across the UK, but also then see what other insights we can glean from the research, to be able to take them forward both within PwC, but also society as a whole.

Emily:

Brilliant, thank you Karen. How about you, Lola?

Lola Ladejobi-Evans:

Thanks Emily, I would echo a lot of what Karen has said. I would also add that the events of the last year have really made people much more open about talking about race and ethnic inequality. This is a prime time to put the information research and data into people's hands so that they can really wrestle with that and it feels that we've got an opportune moment to do that right now.

Emily:

I completely agree, and I am really glad to have both of you here with me today to do just that. Let's get into that data. I mentioned some really stark findings in my intro there that I'm certainly personally quite surprised by, and I'm keen to get under the skin of those a bit. Karen, maybe, can you start us off with some things that really stand out to you from the research that you think all of us really need to understand?

Karen:

Yeah sure, from the research, we've identified that there are some key disparities between racial inequality and how it's perceived between BAME and white individuals within the UK. One of the other interesting stats was around the impact of COVID 19 on society, and on racial inequalities. As 27% of the respondents agreed with the statement that the pandemic had worsened racial and ethnic inequalities within the UK; however, 34% of the respondents from a white background disagree with the statement, compared to only 27% of the BAME respondents. Likewise, 42% of the respondents aged 55 and above, disagreed with the statement and don't believe that the pandemic has worsened racial and ethnic inequalities in the UK. When you compare that against 26% of those who are aged between 18 and 34, so that just shows that even with the age difference, there is a huge difference between how people see racial inequality and some of the factors that will influence that. But the final one for me, which was really interesting, but not surprising, was around social media and the responsibility of social media. 71% of our respondents believe that social media and online platforms have a responsibility to remove and ban accounts that make racist and discriminatory comments. Two-thirds of those respondents also believe that government should do more to tackle racism on social media and online platforms.

Lola:

It's fair to say that when we looked at these results, we were quite shocked. I definitely was quite shocked personally at what seemed to be quite a lot of apathy in a proportion of the population, and how that contrasts with my personal experience in interacting with people. The data that we have is really rich and interesting, and that one of the things that has really stood out to us is that when we look at the results from a socio-economic dimension, we see that factors such as age, race, social class, all impact how racial inequality is perceived in the UK. For example, only 39% of respondents from a white background agree that they want to do something more personally to address racial and ethnic inequality in comparison to 50% of BAME respondents. Then when you look at these differences from the perspective of age, the differences are even more stark. So, 56% of 18 to 34 year olds want to do something personally to address these inequalities, compared to just 29% of respondents who are over the age of 55.

Furthermore, we found that 20% of the respondents from the ABC1 social grade, which is historically referred to as the middle classes, do not believe there was racial inequality in the UK, compared to 29% of respondents, who are from C2DE, traditionally referred to as working class social grade. When we look at this all together, we're really seeing that there is a difference in perception of inequality and that is impacted by various socioeconomic factors as well.

Emily:

As you say, you use the phrase rich data there Lola, huge numbers there to be grappling with, lots of different perspectives. My one takeaway from everything you've just shared with me is the answer to my question I said in the intro, where are we going wrong, is that there isn't a commonly held view that there's a problem that we need to solve, and maybe that's at the crux of the challenge that we're all facing, is that we're not united in trying to solve the problem that certainly the three here today see.

I am interested in the point that you mentioned Karen around the role of social media platforms, the role of government in relation to social media platforms. Clearly a sense that there are some players, who are responsible for driving change, and who do the public think should be fixing this problem. Is there more in the data that tells us who they think should be doing something about this?

Karen:

Yeah Emily, when we asked the public who is responsible when it comes to racial and ethnic inequalities, the majority felt it was social media and media companies that could do more, followed by government and business. Also, there was a strong view that there needs to be better representation across media and media platforms, but there was also a difference between the views of BAME and white respondents in terms of who is responsible for improving racial and ethnic equality, and the BAME individuals believing that social media were responsible, and schools came second to that. But then you compare that against the white individuals, who believe that individuals themselves are responsible and also government had a huge part to play. The other thing that came out very clearly, was that the responsibility of individuals and parents have also had a role to play in terms of addressing the issues around racial and ethnic inequalities, and also the importance of culture and communities, where you’re brought up, the role models you're exposed to, seeing people that were like you in different jobs with senior positions across society, and in media from an earlier stage in their lives had a strong influence as well.

The education clearly had an important role to play, and the actions that the public would like to see the most from education is creating a culturally inclusive curriculum, and making sure that educational curriculums also include contributions from individuals from broader ethnic minority backgrounds.

Emily:

Thanks Karen, that's absolutely fascinating how widespread those views are in terms of who who has the most responsibility. Actually, some quite high numbers there compared to the numbers we were starting with about perceptions of the problem. Maybe that's a cause for some optimism that people do think some actions needed. I am really interested in the employer angle. We all work for an employer, who is very motivated about this agenda, seeing action being taken within PwC, but I would be interested to dig into a little bit more on what people think employers should be doing and your views on where those action points or priorities might lie. Lola, maybe you could take us through that angle.

Lola:

Sure Emily, the three top action points that the public have suggested about what employers should be doing are, firstly, improving processes for reporting and calling out racial bias, injustices and micro-aggression in the workplace, that's over one-third of respondents who have said that. Secondly, introducing or improving mandatory unconscious bias training for all staff, and increase wellbeing support services for those who are affected by racial injustice. We are talking about almost a third of people have suggested these actions as being the top ones for employees to be taking on.

Emily:

That makes sense and that chimes with some of the things that we hear around the ethnicity pay gap reporting as well. An area that's probably already in the minds of our listeners, is around recruitment and progression. Maybe that's a good point for us to touch on, the findings in that as well and how those play into this conversation. We've seen long-term conversations about gender pay gap and how this type of reporting and benchmarking can be a driver of change by really shining a light on an organisation's structure or processes and cultures you were just talking about. I would be interested in your views on what you think ethnicity pay gap reporting can help employers to get going with or thinking about in terms of progression perhaps.

Lola:

The data here is also particularly interesting, because what we see is that there actually is a difference between BAME respondents and white respondents when they're talking about areas that we should focus. Focus on career development is actually something that our BAME respondents talked about. 34% of them have highlighted that as an area that employers should be focusing on, and it begs the question in terms of who we listen to in terms of determining where we should focus. Ethnicity pay gap is one of those areas where we see it as an absolute tool. We see it as a tool that can be used to identify areas where there is inequality and therefore employers can take some action on. Other areas that came out of the data in relation to the area of employment and progression, were when people apply for jobs. So, 45% of people felt that when they were applying for a job that they weren’t treated fairly, and 41% felt that they weren’t treated fairly when applying for promotion or thinking about progression.

The data is clearly telling us that action in the area of employment is something that we in organisations in general need to be focusing on. This is something that we've been doing at PwC, looking at how we can support the progression of individuals. We have done quite a lot on sponsorship and progression coaching in order to support individuals, who want to progress their careers, and the data supporting that those are the types of actions that we should be taking.

Emily:

Thanks Lola. Karen, I am interested, clearly we started in the intro talking about the fact that you lead in providing services to some of our government clients. How does the picture in terms of priorities for government compare to what we've just been talking about from employers. Are there some additional action points or areas of focus that we're seeing coming through in the data for those organisations?

Karen:

Yes, the top priority for the public, almost 4 in 10, and reflecting on what Lola was just saying about employers, is to strengthen employment legislation and to stamp out workplace discrimination, alongside investing in better monitoring of racial and ethnic equality across society, and that came out very strongly. Also, actions needed to be taken to improve racial and ethnic equalities within the education setting, which I talked about earlier, and close to half of the respondents agreed that creating a culturally inclusive curriculum is really important.

When it comes to public services, the criminal justice system came out very strongly, almost half of our respondents saying that people from different ethnic backgrounds are treated unfairly in the criminal justice system. To take steps to address racial and ethnic inequalities in the public services was at 35%, and focusing on improving racial and ethnic diversity within the civil service workforce was at 27%. It is important though, with all this data, to not forget the optimism for change is very high among our BAME and young respondents. For example, 40% of the BAME respondents believe that racial inequality will be eradicated within the next 10 years. Therefore, it's important that when we’re  responding to some of these challenges and create that change, that it's done with the focus on empowering our communities, and the young, and making sure that their contributions and changes are meaningful to society as a whole.

Emily:

I am really glad you shared that stat, Karen, because there are so many data points in here that could leave you feeling like this as an overwhelming challenge, but a sense of optimism is perhaps a great way for us to close this conversation, so that we don't all leave feeling too daunted about the change that we've been talking about. I'd love to ask you both personally, just stepping back from the data for a minute, your reflections, where is the cause for optimism, what hope could we be looking to as we take forward the conversation and the actions that we've been discussing today. Karen, as you were talking about optimism there, I'll come to you first. 

Karen:

Yes, for me, it's about the data says it, but I then generally also feel passionate about the young and the young feeling empowered to make change. We saw the response to Black Lives Matters. We've seen the response to the environment, we've seen the response to things that really matter to them. I am very hopeful that the young will take forward this agenda with real passion and make change for society in terms of stamping out racial inequalities.

Emily:

I can certainly recognise that even when I look at my own children, who are very young, this is something that we can have great faith that they will make big changes in. Lola, what would your thoughts be?

Lola:

I would echo that as well. The young people, as they say children are the future. Also going back to what you said really at the beginning of this, is that when I look at what happened in the last year, particularly around the protest, we did see a lot of young people coming out, but the data also tells us that BAME people themselves actually do feel really positive, and that's a testament to individual and cultural resilience, and that should give us a lot of hope as well, because that people moving forward as they start to see that there are opportunities for them will be able to seize those more effectively.

Emily:

Well, that's a good place for us to leave today's discussion. For listeners, who would like to find out more about the research we've been discussing, please do visit our website pwc.co.uk to find both our race and ethnic inequality research and our ethnic diversity pay gap report. Of course, please subscribe to keep up to date with all our latest episodes. Thank you so much Karen and Lola, and also to everyone for listening. See you next time.

Participants

• Emily Khan
• Karen Finlayson
  
• Lola Ladejobi-Evans