Episode 2 - Leading through change

Transcript

Laura Hinton: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of our bite size conversation series, Forces at work. I'm Laura Hinton, head of Tax, Legal and People at PwC UK and I'm delighted that you're tuning in. We are living through an era of extraordinary change with so many forces at work. Technologies such as AI are becoming more powerful and intuitive. The geopolitical environment is complex and fast moving, and the world and our clients are more interconnected than they've ever been. It's an exciting time to be in or entering the workforce. But what does good leadership look like through this opportunity rich but challenging landscape? I'm delighted to be joined today by Will Barkway, one of our Workforce Transformation Partners, to discuss this important question. So, Will, thank you for being with us today. We'll start, kind of, broadly. I mean, what do we want of our leaders in these challenging and changing times? What's the ask?

Will Barkway: Thanks for having me on. I guess leading through change is one thing, but there's so much disruption going on all at the same time which is impacting everyone in all different industries, and I think for me and the leaders I work with that's met with two really strong emotional responses. The first one is there's so much changing, and a huge amount of exciting opportunity to grow, to innovate, to connect what we're doing in our organisations with big challenges in the world. That's great. The other emotion is, that's a bleak picture of the world. Lots is changing. It's quite challenging. I don't quite know where to go with it. It's ambiguous. What do I do next? So, you know, what's going to be the impact of GenAI? When or will we reach net zero? What is our organisation going to look like ten and five years in the future, still important, and in the next year. So, I think in terms of actual leadership traits, I think the first big thing for me is get comfortable with not knowing the right answer, even more than you have done before. And I think telling people that you don't know the answer as a leader is hugely important. This, kind of, vulnerability. Don't be afraid to say, 'We know these things are going well, but some don't as well.' And I think, final comment, is the traditional, kind of, view of leadership, top down, hierarchical, this is the direction, this is what we're doing, not going to ask anyone, that equation doesn't really add up I don't think. So, I think the second point here is be human, which always worries me when you need to tell yourself, 'Be human or talk to others about it.'

But genuinely listening, being genuinely empathetic with people, really taking the time, getting in different views and being open minded. But that's something people talk about a lot, not just saying it, just do it, because individual leaders won't have the right answers. So, I think that's the kind of picture. I'm not sure if that resonates?

Laura Hinton: It definitely does and you make it sound so simple, right, in terms of, just be human, be authentic, be transparent, listen. And actually on one level it is quite simple isn't it. I think there is an element of none of us can predict the future. We are in a rapidly changing world, and actually of those changes many of them are quite challenging changes. We don't have the play book, for want of a better word, and I think there's a growing expectation of leaders to have the answers, and to some extent there's an even greater expectation on business leaders given that other leaders around the world are struggling with some really big fundamental changes. So, there's an element around actually bringing it back down to a relatable level, what are the things we can control, and not being overwhelmed as leaders. Which is easy to say, but actually it's quite tricky to do it.

Will Barkway: Yes. Easy to say isn't it, just be human. But I think, again, the idea that you walk into work, do you become a business leader and need to do things in a fundamentally different way? I think that's the wrong perspective or the wrong outlook. How do you behave and build relationships with people outside of work, at the school gate or friends through clubs or whatever it might be? How do you open? How do you listen? How do you understand different perspectives to get things done? I think that's really important as well, and I guess leadership is a bit of an accordion, right? It's a term that's used a lot, so, you can be CEO of a 100,000 person organisation, you can run a team of 5. I guess, from your perspective, Laura, what are some of those common themes across those different type of leadership roles, because some are massive, and some are small, but all equally important in this world that's changing fast. What are those common themes?

Laura Hinton: Yes, I think that's a great question because actually on any given day we can all be leaders, so, I think of some of the roles that I have of, you know, 25,000/100,000 people on for one meeting and decision, and then actually a group of six and it's still leadership. It looks and feels different to some extent, but from my perspective I think it's very much about alignment. You've touched on it as well, you know, what you say is important, how you say it, really important, but actually what you do and actions following through aligning with what you're saying, clearly that will make a huge difference, how you communicate, what you measure. So, there is something around having a clear vision as a leader in terms of where we need to get to. For me it's very much around empowerment, how we're going to set out the values, set out the vision and where we need to get to and then empower people to get there. Something you said right at the outset around how we need to get comfortable that we don't have all of the answers, and that's a good thing from my perspective because actually here we have the privilege of being surrounded by amazing people who have the answers that we don't have. So, it's very much about creating the environment, I think, where those people with the knowledge, the insight, the skills and potential to help solve a problem feel empowered to bring that voice to the table. And I think that's as important if you've got a team of six people than if you've got a team of many thousands.

It's creating the environment where people can be led and lead each other rather than looking to the appointed leader saying, 'What's the answer?' Because I'm not sure as leaders-, well, I'm pretty sure we don't know the answer. It's about collectively finding a path through it.

Will Barkway: Yes, it's really interesting. We ran a leadership programme last year with leaders from 80 different organisations and just this concept of collective leadership came up so much more frequently. Again, individuals don't know answers, even leadership teams within one organisation can't quite find the answer, so, I think working collectively inside your group and then across different industries I think is really important. I think the other thing about leadership and reflecting this conversation as we go, there's a bit that's talked about less which is leaders leading other leaders. So, I hope that's not too cryptic, right, but just to frame it, so, you've got leading from the top, hugely important, role modelling, makes sense. You've got leadership at every level which is wherever you are, you don't need to be the CEO to be a leader, it can happen everywhere. I think what's hugely important in this is how do you lead with your peers? When you sit around your board table or senior leadership table or management team, is that an open environment? Are people's views respected? Is it psychologically safe to raise things or do things get shut down quickly? And are decisions made transparently with the group, not after the meeting with a small group of people or whatever that looks like. Because investment in that is hugely important because if you've asking senior leaders to go out, set the right tone, innovate, empower, all the things you've been saying, if actually in your own exco meeting or your own leadership meeting it's not like that, no chance, it's not going to happen.

So, I think that's a hugely important thing to help drive this forward as well.

Laura Hinton: I think that's right and I think the reality is, whatever happens within a board room in terms of that environment and the culture that we set, I mean, that leaks doesn't it? I mean, people understand how decisions get made. What you're saying, is it different from what you're doing? And all of that stuff, I think if you're not explicit around the culture and then living and breathing it every day then it confuses people. That said, I think that if thinking about it through the, kind of, broader inclusion and diversity lens, you don't want all of your leaders around a table to be carbon copies of each other. You want difference, you want different perspectives, you want the ability to challenge, to be challenged. So, what's your view on leadership styles then? Do we have to have a consistent style around a board table or in a leadership team, or, is there strength in having leadership styles that surely have to, kind of, coalesce at some point?

Will Barkway: Yes, it's difficult and group think is a real challenge. So, there are, of course, lots of different leadership styles just to start with, and especially in a multi generational workforce. Alright, so, millennials now sit on ExCo's, right, and that's quite a different feel because they think and behave in a completely different way, and of course, humans just have different traits as well. So, again, I think it's hugely important, and when composing those leadership teams I think some of the organisations I'm working with, when people are just thrown together, or people who have risen to the top and therefore they are the senior leadership group just, because that's where everyone has got to, are less successful in this really ambiguous world. One organisation I think of has really taken the time with internal recruitment, with real organisational historic knowledge, getting those board members, those execs and board members there, and then perhaps more disruptive innovative thinkers around the table. So, there's a real balance there, and again it's hugely important in an ambiguous world like we're in, when one person doesn't know, if you're all the same you collectively won't know, and it just de-risks the whole thing as well from the top of house if you've got those different views and different people too which is important.

Laura Hinton: And you mentioned being human earlier on and I think that is really important. It's important to me personally in terms of leadership, but there's humility which I think comes with that being human and I think self awareness, vulnerability, some of the things we've touched on, but actually I think some of the teams that I've created from a leadership perspective it is about being, you know, humble and aware that as an individual there are big gaps in my knowledge, my experience, my skill set. So, surrounding myself with people that are better at that stuff than I am, it's about thinking about the collective team rather than any one individual. Is that more important now than it has been?

Will Barkway: 100% and I think that takes confidence. It takes confidence and bravery, not in an arrogant dominating way, just that it's okay that others will know more than you, that's absolutely-, it's not fine, it's absolutely needed because you need that kind of breadth which is hugely important, and it happens on a big stage if you're presenting to a huge group you need to be able to clearly unvarnish the truth - these are the things we know, these are the things we don't. I don't know, we're going to work it through together, and the same with just small groups of people. And I sit with my team upstairs just saying, 'Look-,' And they say, 'Well, things are going well or not going well.' 'Right, okay, well, this is what we'll do next, or, we don't know-, I don't really know we do next, and you might not know either, and that is also okay, but together we can do something differently which is important.' And that's a different type of leadership trait and behaviour, that, kind of, empathetic and working together. So, the question I had for you was, how do you find those leaders? Right, either developing them through an organisation or finding them in the market place? Interviews are hard. To get under the skin of behaviours and people like that. I guess how do you find them, or, you know, what are those notes that you make go, 'Oh, yes, you're going to be great in that role.'?

Laura Hinton: Yes, it's a fascinating question and I don't know is probably the answer I think-,

Will Barkway: Oh, good. There we go!

Laura Hinton: I'm learning. But what I do know is what I do know is that I think past experience of course is important to shape a person how they think, you know, how they act in any given situation, but I think increasingly past experience isn't necessarily relevant to what we have to face as leaders in the future. So, for me it does come back to that, kind of, underlying skill set around humility, humanness, low ego, being willing to lead from the middle, from the back, encourage other people to really step up and deliver their potential. It's about resilience as well, vision, the ability to inspire people to be vulnerable, to be open and honest, admit you don't know the answers, all things that actually I think back to some of the leadership text books of ten years ago, they wouldn't have necessarily featured. So, for me it's more about underlying character and traits as opposed to the blocks of experience and where and when somebody has done something.

Will Barkway: Yes, I think that's right and just, I guess, a final thought. Resilience you mentioned there, then I think about bravery, that's so important because actually just on an individual level as a senior leader wherever you are around the world and whichever industry, when you go to bed at night and close your eyes it's only you, it's only you thinking about the challenges you've got, what's going well, what's not, what to do tomorrow. And in this hugely disruptive world a lot of people say, 'What shall we do?' And, 'We don't know.' To hold that line, to hold your nerve and have that resilience and bravery to bring people in to take different views, to work through things that we just don't know the answers to, I think that's really hard. I think it's quite different depending on where you are in your career journey, it's different and it's hard. So, I think those traits, yes, I agree, hugely important.

Laura Hinton: I agree, it's tough, but that's the power of the team isn't it, you're not on your own, and I think as leaders we all need to understand that we have people around us, so, if we build strong teams no one person-, I mean, yes, you're accountable ultimately but you've got other people that you can rely on, be honest with and share those fears that keep you awake in the night to say, 'Look, well, how do we work through something?' And together you'll get to a better answer rather than just one person.

Will Barkway: Yes. Great. Easy!

Laura Hinton: Easy! As we say.. Well, look, thank you for joining me today.

Will Barkway: My pleasure.

Laura Hinton: It's been fascinating to hear your thoughts and insights. And thank you to all of you for listening and tuning in today. Hopefully you've enjoyed the conversation. We have got so many experts in our people business so please do reach out to us if you would like to hear more. Thanks everyone and see you next time.

Speakers

• Laura Hinton, Head of Tax, Legal and Workforce
• Will Barkway, Workforce Partner